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It's August in West London. I'm on

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a dawn raid. I'm getting the chance

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to see the war on drugs in

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action. Hello, I'm here with

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the Metropolitan Police force about to

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kick some doors in.

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Or if we want.

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Wow.

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You've got to be aware that you know, I'm

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a little bit on edge in this situation.

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It's typically when confronted with this,

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I've got my hands behind me, like morning

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everybody. Operation Concordia is on

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today. The bottom line is we identified 5

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addresses that's linked to local drug

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supply. We're here to make London a safer

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place to live in. This is in line with

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the Commissioners Total War crime.

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Nice to know I've got sat next to the

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fellow who goes in and by the back door.

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My leg already.

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15 years ago I was on the other

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side of that door, metaphorically, not

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literally. I was in possession of drugs

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and guilty.

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I'm clean now, not as a result of

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prison or the criminal justice system,

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but because of abstinence based recovery.

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The war on drugs is our government

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slogan, ideology and policy for dealing

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with drug addicts. 1 billion is spent on

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treating drug addicts, 4 billion on

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criminalizing them with 1500 drug deaths

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a year. Two years ago, I took my

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views to Parliament. We need to start

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regarding regarding. Addiction in all its

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forms as a health issue as opposed to a

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judicial and criminal issue. When that

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Home Affairs Select Committee reported

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that British drug laws failed, that the

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war on drugs is lost, and that there's a

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now or never moment to reform our drug

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laws, David Cameron didn't agree. We have

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a policy that actually is working in

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Britain, drug use. Is coming down. I

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think we should stick at that. Obviously

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I disagree with David Cameron. The war on

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drugs has to end. I believe the only

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way to solve this problem is to listen

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to the addicts themselves and end

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criminalization. Umm.

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Three days before the Notting Hill

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Carnival, a comparable festival takes

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place of police raids all over London.

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This one gives the Metropolitan Police a

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couple of problems. Firstly, they tackle

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a door that is more than fit for the

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purpose of keeping them out.

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And second, there is no one in

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the property guilty of any crime. Ohh.

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That's it.

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Cortana.

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You're not going to take him into custody

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then because he's not the suspect. He's

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not the suspect. Well, he would appear to

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be the father of religion on

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understanding, actually upset, horrible

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things like that. So he's in that moment

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just that he's just saying dad and his

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grandson.

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Umm.

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Absolutely. It seemed like a good idea to

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begin this documentary with the people

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that most vehemently oppose my views and

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enforce them rigorously. For

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the first time, I was like 19, I was

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around my mate John's house and it was

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this kind of, it was this kind of deal,

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front door, back door. Well, you were in

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the house when police were coming in at

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about 1/4 of an ounce, right? Personal on

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me and like it was proper like sort of

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like all geared up and everything and my

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mate John stagnant. No, it's only

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Russell. But then got nicked by the

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Met week later, also for possession in

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Soho and. And it was in the

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back of a van like we were

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just in. Yeah.

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So like, you know, obviously we've been

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on this side of it. You sort of you get a

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different side of things and and how we

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perform. Normal people were getting

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nicked and normal people are doing their

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nicking. You don't set the laws, you

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carry out instructions. I sort of feel

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like in a similar way, people that are

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dealing drugs are dealing with a

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different kind of law. The law of this

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is. How you survive.

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Because the first raid didn't go to plan,

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no drugs were found. No one was arrested

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then or since. The police took us to a

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second location which they informed me

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was a crack house, but I now know is

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actually just a house with poor people in

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it taking crack as you can see. Syringes

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there and other bits and pieces. You're

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right, it was OK. What if it's not a nice

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way to start the day? No, I'll tell you

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what was mad is that I've not been

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anywhere like that since I was a drug

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addict. So like sort of going in there

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and like that smell as soon as you go in

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and then the desperation and the

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hopelessness and. In the end, it just

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makes you feel a real sense of despair.

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Do you ever feel that it's pointless? Do

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you ever feel it's pointless? No, I

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don't. No I don't. Because the default

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for me is we're being positive and we're

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being positive with local Community B.

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We're trying to get these people, we're

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trying to break the cycle. And if we

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don't do that, who's going to pick these

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people up?For

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me, the police pursuit of drug dealers

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complicates effective treatment for

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addicts. Ohh. Tell you what, our record,

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Charlie. I'm thinking this is a health

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problem, not a crime problem, just

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because they look like they're all

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buckled up and emaciated and, you know,

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a criminal. Attitude of a criminal is

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there's some power in that right? If

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you're a sort of a person that's making

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dollar from your criminality, but that

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that's just I think the people victims,

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the ideal situation is no one takes

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drugs, especially people that have, you

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know, can't handle it. That ain't an

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option. People just though. So for me

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then it's like, well, how do you organize

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it?The people who are going to take drugs

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no matter what. In the

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best possible way.

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There's room for improvement.

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Additionally, the policy being enforced

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here troubles the neighbors facing the

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house with poor people in it that take

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crack. It's 8:00 in the morning in this

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quiet residential St. and it's not the

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first time this flat has been raided.

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Like most people in here, when they're

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coming out of prison, they ride them and

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then take them. Get another suspended

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sentence and bring them back again. It's

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just as sad for us. It happens to be

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opposite us. But if I moved it away, I

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suppose it just turn up somewhere. It's

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going to be somewhere, somewhere. It's a

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tough one, Dell. It is. And they'll say,

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I don't know if you'll answer. You don't

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know. The answer is no one seems to know

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the answer. Just moves it around. Only

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one of the three people in the house

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has been arrested. No drugs are found.

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And 27 year old Samantha hasn't been done

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for drug possession or dealing, but for

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an outstanding theft warrant. These

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outstanding warrants, how come you're the

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theft related? Are they? So why? Why did

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that happen?Drug use.

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Using and talking more methadone.

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Nice to see that someone else is giving

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them a bit of compassion. We try to, but

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they see the uniform before they see the

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person. I know this is it. This is why

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it's the law that's important. The law,

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the law. Underneath this I am one lovely

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girl. I can imagine.

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You set me up. That's what I do for a

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living. You cheeky sausage. Get away with

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ya.

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I follow Samantha's, not in a weird way,

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back to the police station where she's

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being held before her court appearance.

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Specialist drug workers have been called,

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but I want to hear our story directly.

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Can you remember why you first started

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using? I was 12 when I moved

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here, so yeah, the first people that

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I've met were using were users, so

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just at that age I thought it

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was normal. How many times have you

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been arrested?

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Hello.

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Get out of prison, nowhere to live.

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So then I'll have to find somewhere

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to stay, which is normally smokers

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because they're the only people that are

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willing to put you up and then

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they want paid, spent in drugs. So

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yeah, it's really hopeless, isn't it?

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Hopeless scenario. This this is the

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ongoing cycle for me.

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Prison back out to nothing.

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So you're still tired,

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mate? Yeah. Fed up,

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yeah.

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Do you know that circumstances are

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really, really different than some person

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now that's got money and I don't use

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drugs and all that? The feeling that you

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have now, I understand that feeling. I

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understand that feeling. I understand

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that feeling. Yeah.

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What about all the money what got spent

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on like ordered a raid and all that

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and all of the Business Today And then

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the real problem is housing and

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treatment. That's why my focus Casey is

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like I I agree, but I'm employed to

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do one bit no matter as being. Minion

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at the bottom of the pile. I can say

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whatever I wanna say, but it's not gonna

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change anything. It's gonna be hierarchy.

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I've gotta start looking at why we keep

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doing this. And it's the same old people,

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so they've gotta find their way of

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cutting the the cycle and stopping it. We

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don't want to see any family or friends

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in her situation. There needs to be that

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stepping stone to help you and speaking

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to people like Sam and say, look, what do

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you actually need when you come out of

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places where you said you've been in

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prison and say, look, right, this is what

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I need if you're going to give it to me,

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I'll be seeing you again next year.

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Realistically, give us a couple minutes.

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We'll see you soon.

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In that one borough there were a total

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of 5 drug raids that day. No drugs

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were found in four of them and there

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were two arrests, Samantha and a young

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lad for possession of cannabis with

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intent to supply.

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One person who agrees that the war on

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drugs is completely unhelpful is the

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woman who runs Kids Company. I meet

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Camilla today, surrounded by kids at

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summer play camp. The organization runs,

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but it's not these kids I'm here to learn

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about the ones that turn up at our street

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centres in London, Liverpool and Bristol.

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We have 82% of our children

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arrive addicted to substances that are

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St. level centers. The children, yeah,

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yeah, 82 percent, 80% of the

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children, 90% of the children and

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young people were introduced to

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substances by their immediate carers and

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sort of people around us.

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Camilla knows life is difficult enough

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for kids brought up by parents taking

267
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drugs, but the drugs being illegal just

268
00:11:41,484 --> 00:11:44,422
adds to the stress and tension the kids

269
00:11:44,422 --> 00:11:47,360
feel. A lot of them are traumatized by

270
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,196
everything that goes with illicit

271
00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:51,399
substance taking, so the drug dealers

272
00:11:51,399 --> 00:11:53,970
that first didn't want their debts paid.

273
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,425
The children often see firearms, yeah,

274
00:11:56,425 --> 00:11:59,115
there's threats, you know, so that it's

275
00:11:59,115 --> 00:12:01,805
not just the substance taking that is

276
00:12:01,805 --> 00:12:04,110
the problem, it's the whole lifestyle

277
00:12:04,110 --> 00:12:06,800
that goes with it that terrifies the

278
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,105
kids. Seeing how highly emotional the

279
00:12:09,105 --> 00:12:11,410
children are when they arrive. Camilla

280
00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:13,332
has commissioned research with this

281
00:12:13,332 --> 00:12:15,380
neuroscientist bloke. To test the impact

282
00:12:15,380 --> 00:12:17,496
all the stress has on the children's

283
00:12:17,496 --> 00:12:19,613
behaviour. So the studies show that there

284
00:12:19,613 --> 00:12:22,334
and make a kind of a key part of

285
00:12:22,334 --> 00:12:24,451
the brain involved in threat detection is

286
00:12:24,451 --> 00:12:25,963
over overactive. Really what you're

287
00:12:25,963 --> 00:12:28,080
seeing is that these kids are adapting,

288
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,197
right? But they're adapting in ways which

289
00:12:30,197 --> 00:12:32,011
can increase vulnerability to things like

290
00:12:32,011 --> 00:12:33,825
addiction and to things like mental

291
00:12:33,825 --> 00:12:36,302
health problems. So many people, as you

292
00:12:36,302 --> 00:12:38,698
know, start taking drugs to self medicate

293
00:12:38,698 --> 00:12:40,410
because they've got negative emotions,

294
00:12:40,410 --> 00:12:42,807
they've got hyper arousal and that's what

295
00:12:42,807 --> 00:12:45,204
these kids experience. Yes, well, I did

296
00:12:45,204 --> 00:12:47,943
it. And drugs are one effective way to

297
00:12:47,943 --> 00:12:50,682
kind of manage the pain and manage that

298
00:12:50,682 --> 00:12:53,078
arise. So what these children first need

299
00:12:53,078 --> 00:12:55,859
is at times of distress. To be able

300
00:12:55,859 --> 00:12:58,524
to turn to someone to soothe them and

301
00:12:58,524 --> 00:13:01,189
calm them. And if they can't find the

302
00:13:01,189 --> 00:13:03,854
soother or the person who's going to help

303
00:13:03,854 --> 00:13:06,186
them solve problems, then the next best

304
00:13:06,186 --> 00:13:08,518
thing is to become oblivious to the

305
00:13:08,518 --> 00:13:10,850
problem. Yeah. And drugs. Then do that

306
00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:13,514
for a lot of kids. It's interesting that

307
00:13:13,514 --> 00:13:16,070
there's seems to be at. Least a

308
00:13:16,070 --> 00:13:17,271
theoretical relationship between

309
00:13:17,271 --> 00:13:19,272
conditions of deprivation and poverty

310
00:13:19,272 --> 00:13:21,673
sensitivity and hyper vigilance and drug

311
00:13:21,673 --> 00:13:24,475
use so if you criminalise that it's

312
00:13:24,475 --> 00:13:26,475
like criminalizing poverty by proxy,

313
00:13:26,475 --> 00:13:28,877
isn't it Well that's certainly one

314
00:13:28,877 --> 00:13:31,678
argument I think that the problem about

315
00:13:31,678 --> 00:13:34,479
criminalization is that it feels to look

316
00:13:34,479 --> 00:13:37,183
at why people. Are in this position

317
00:13:37,183 --> 00:13:40,161
in the 1st place. So why, why do why

318
00:13:40,161 --> 00:13:42,808
does somebody get to a point where they

319
00:13:42,808 --> 00:13:45,455
have to use drugs? You can't keep blaming

320
00:13:45,455 --> 00:13:47,771
the individual and say this individual is

321
00:13:47,771 --> 00:13:49,425
irresponsible. You know they're drug

322
00:13:49,425 --> 00:13:51,741
addict or they're criminal. If we have

323
00:13:51,741 --> 00:13:53,395
large numbers of vulnerable individuals,

324
00:13:53,395 --> 00:13:55,380
we are as a society responsible.

325
00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:05,246
Watch where you stand as well.

326
00:14:05,246 --> 00:14:08,003
Yeah, I will. Bloody hell. ***

327
00:14:08,003 --> 00:14:10,300
**** man, it's really brutal.

328
00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:13,850
Philippe's drug worker in Birmingham, who

329
00:14:13,850 --> 00:14:16,207
wants me to see how criminalization of

330
00:14:16,207 --> 00:14:18,564
users has driven them to taking their

331
00:14:18,564 --> 00:14:20,585
drugs in a dirty, unsafe, visually

332
00:14:20,585 --> 00:14:23,279
cliched place just a few 100 yards from

333
00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:25,636
the city centre. People are going to

334
00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:27,319
inject heroin, but unfortunately they've

335
00:14:27,319 --> 00:14:29,676
got nowhere safe to inject people are

336
00:14:29,676 --> 00:14:32,157
using here, so absolutely, yeah. To

337
00:14:32,157 --> 00:14:34,995
remind yourself. I can't

338
00:14:34,995 --> 00:14:36,749
believe this is like in England,

339
00:14:36,749 --> 00:14:38,504
Birmingham, you know, second city, and

340
00:14:38,504 --> 00:14:40,551
this is where people have to. Yeah,

341
00:14:40,551 --> 00:14:42,597
there's lots of needles. Yeah, yeah. And

342
00:14:42,597 --> 00:14:44,937
people have slept here, as you can see.

343
00:14:44,937 --> 00:14:46,984
Ohh, man, good medieval, you know, this

344
00:14:46,984 --> 00:14:48,738
isn't the consequences of addiction. This

345
00:14:48,738 --> 00:14:50,200
is the consequences of criminalization.

346
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:54,387
But the addicts Phillipe tries to help

347
00:14:54,387 --> 00:14:56,543
him Birmingham know that being viewed as

348
00:14:56,543 --> 00:14:58,392
criminals makes their lives even more

349
00:14:58,392 --> 00:15:01,284
dangerous. You saved my life.

350
00:15:01,284 --> 00:15:03,271
I'm just getting to the point where I

351
00:15:03,271 --> 00:15:05,009
couldn't get myself and please come and

352
00:15:05,009 --> 00:15:06,996
had three in European and stuck it in

353
00:15:06,996 --> 00:15:08,735
your enemy archery. Ohh, I'd like 15

354
00:15:08,735 --> 00:15:10,473
people we know haven't been that lucky.

355
00:15:10,473 --> 00:15:12,709
The thing I can't get past is it's like

356
00:15:12,709 --> 00:15:14,199
when you're using in conditions like

357
00:15:14,199 --> 00:15:15,938
that, you're like an animal. You're being

358
00:15:15,938 --> 00:15:17,676
treated like an animal, not having any

359
00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:19,663
rights and not having any respect and not

360
00:15:19,663 --> 00:15:22,040
having any. Dignity. Dignity.

361
00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:33,983
They're always burn. Burn,

362
00:15:33,983 --> 00:15:35,370
baby, burn.

363
00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:40,680
One country almost 30 years ago decided

364
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,141
to take a different approach. Oddly, it's

365
00:15:43,141 --> 00:15:45,601
Switzerland, a country I think of as

366
00:15:45,601 --> 00:15:48,061
being super conservative. But here in the

367
00:15:48,061 --> 00:15:50,522
capital burn, they set up a drug

368
00:15:50,522 --> 00:15:52,279
consumption room where addicts can

369
00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:55,091
legally and safely get a fix, which in

370
00:15:55,091 --> 00:15:57,200
some respects is a step forward.

371
00:15:57,770 --> 00:16:00,433
OK, not now. Before

372
00:16:00,433 --> 00:16:02,430
yes. Now no.

373
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,015
1200 addicts are currently regulars at

374
00:16:08,015 --> 00:16:10,972
this place, using the smoking room and

375
00:16:10,972 --> 00:16:13,084
injecting rooms. Clean needles and

376
00:16:13,084 --> 00:16:15,619
utensils are all free. But ******

377
00:16:15,619 --> 00:16:18,576
Reffner, who runs the center, knows that

378
00:16:18,576 --> 00:16:20,688
drugs in Switzerland remain illegal.

379
00:16:20,688 --> 00:16:22,378
Absolutely illegal. They're illegal.

380
00:16:22,378 --> 00:16:24,884
Absolutely. Two policemen on the other

381
00:16:24,884 --> 00:16:27,256
side, where do you make that policeman?

382
00:16:27,256 --> 00:16:29,289
When you're outside, the police comes.

383
00:16:29,289 --> 00:16:31,322
When you're inside, police don't come.

384
00:16:31,322 --> 00:16:34,032
All right, So you won't get arrested if

385
00:16:34,032 --> 00:16:36,743
you use in this facility. Exactly. We got

386
00:16:36,743 --> 00:16:39,453
that pragmatic way of our drug policy. We

387
00:16:39,453 --> 00:16:41,825
say better when they use drugs, better

388
00:16:41,825 --> 00:16:44,530
they use it applies. Where it's

389
00:16:44,530 --> 00:16:47,400
clean and good, the good syringes. Not

390
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:48,630
with the police.

391
00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:50,940
Chasing them.

392
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:58,656
Our idea is to bring back the needles.

393
00:16:58,656 --> 00:17:00,581
They used needles. Has that affected

394
00:17:00,581 --> 00:17:02,826
disease in their burn? Well, ten years

395
00:17:02,826 --> 00:17:05,713
ago he had 98% of the people here were

396
00:17:05,713 --> 00:17:07,958
hepatitis. Now, Now it's about 6060. Even

397
00:17:07,958 --> 00:17:10,957
too much. So

398
00:17:10,957 --> 00:17:13,109
it does look like this place keeps

399
00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:15,568
addicts healthier. And as if to prove the

400
00:17:15,568 --> 00:17:17,719
point, Booby introduces me to Claude, a

401
00:17:17,719 --> 00:17:19,870
teacher who's been taking drugs for 40

402
00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:22,636
years. So I mean, it's good that this is

403
00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,095
you. Keeps. It keeps you young, isn't it?

404
00:17:25,095 --> 00:17:27,247
It's keeps you youthful cloth. There's no

405
00:17:27,247 --> 00:17:30,013
doubt about it. I mean, this is a good

406
00:17:30,013 --> 00:17:32,906
facility. But the problem is, for me,

407
00:17:32,906 --> 00:17:35,654
I was taking drugs for pain because

408
00:17:35,654 --> 00:17:38,402
I was miserable. Yeah, me too. We

409
00:17:38,402 --> 00:17:41,150
all do. There's always a story of

410
00:17:41,150 --> 00:17:43,898
pain behind it. Is it possible, Claude,

411
00:17:43,898 --> 00:17:46,647
that if you were able to process

412
00:17:46,647 --> 00:17:49,395
the pain, that the drugs would not

413
00:17:49,395 --> 00:17:52,093
be necessary?Yeah, I

414
00:17:52,093 --> 00:17:55,073
think the therapy should be always

415
00:17:55,073 --> 00:17:58,053
looking why you take it and

416
00:17:58,053 --> 00:18:01,033
and not with stuff. Now we

417
00:18:01,033 --> 00:18:01,530
know.

418
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,348
Ohh, this is Harry's smoker. Yeah,

419
00:18:06,348 --> 00:18:09,017
I feel you, baby. That's yeah,

420
00:18:09,017 --> 00:18:11,685
that's my thing. Ohh, there she

421
00:18:11,685 --> 00:18:12,130
goes.

422
00:18:15,550 --> 00:18:18,317
Where do you buy your drugs? How

423
00:18:18,317 --> 00:18:21,084
do you buy You buy the drugs

424
00:18:21,084 --> 00:18:23,851
here? How much for a bag? Ohh

425
00:18:23,851 --> 00:18:26,618
23 for this for one burn deal

426
00:18:26,618 --> 00:18:28,990
now I have 11 years still.

427
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,640
Yeah, yeah. OK.

428
00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:39,563
Yeah. Was

429
00:18:39,563 --> 00:18:41,140
that not a problem for you?

430
00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:44,920
Good luck. Thank you.

431
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,436
So why would you want to stop if

432
00:18:49,436 --> 00:18:52,152
you're surrounded by drugs every day in a

433
00:18:52,152 --> 00:18:54,528
place like this? When I meet former

434
00:18:54,528 --> 00:18:56,226
health minister for Switzerland Thomas

435
00:18:56,226 --> 00:18:58,941
Zeltner, I ask him about the efficacy of

436
00:18:58,941 --> 00:19:00,978
this facility to meet you, handsome

437
00:19:00,978 --> 00:19:03,355
devil. Look, it's all very good, isn't

438
00:19:03,355 --> 00:19:06,071
it, down there? But it just breaks your

439
00:19:06,071 --> 00:19:08,739
heart. He said nobody on this

440
00:19:08,739 --> 00:19:11,706
planet knows what to do with these

441
00:19:11,706 --> 00:19:14,673
people. They have been in and out

442
00:19:14,673 --> 00:19:17,640
of abstinence programs. They have been in

443
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,606
and out in methadone. Why not try

444
00:19:20,606 --> 00:19:23,149
something and very modestly and very

445
00:19:23,149 --> 00:19:25,692
scientifically try it? People survive in

446
00:19:25,692 --> 00:19:28,396
these programs. And I'm not dying

447
00:19:28,396 --> 00:19:31,295
of overdoses. Yeah, they are able to

448
00:19:31,295 --> 00:19:34,193
go back to work. It seems very

449
00:19:34,193 --> 00:19:36,678
innovative in one respect. There's a

450
00:19:36,678 --> 00:19:39,577
place where people can come and use

451
00:19:39,577 --> 00:19:42,475
drugs, but this doesn't feel like the

452
00:19:42,475 --> 00:19:44,546
manifestation of a psychological change

453
00:19:44,546 --> 00:19:46,616
where people in Switzerland generally

454
00:19:46,616 --> 00:19:49,372
accept. Here and in their hearts,

455
00:19:49,372 --> 00:19:51,989
drug addiction is not a crime,

456
00:19:51,989 --> 00:19:54,607
drug addiction is an illness that

457
00:19:54,607 --> 00:19:57,225
a move like this is not

458
00:19:57,225 --> 00:19:59,843
the manifestation of compassion, but the

459
00:19:59,843 --> 00:20:02,024
beginnings of ghettoization. Drug addicts

460
00:20:02,024 --> 00:20:04,642
no, no, this is absolutely important

461
00:20:04,642 --> 00:20:07,597
that this center is in the. They

462
00:20:07,597 --> 00:20:09,737
love the title Not Not on the ghetto.

463
00:20:09,737 --> 00:20:12,143
You'd have to be in the middle of that.

464
00:20:12,143 --> 00:20:14,015
People see what's going on because it's

465
00:20:14,015 --> 00:20:15,887
important that people know what we do.

466
00:20:15,887 --> 00:20:17,758
What's happening to this guy at the

467
00:20:17,758 --> 00:20:19,630
window here? It looks like he's getting

468
00:20:19,630 --> 00:20:21,769
shut down. Do you get deals? He's staying

469
00:20:21,769 --> 00:20:23,909
on his phone while he's so relaxed. I'm

470
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:25,513
just being arrested right now. One

471
00:20:25,513 --> 00:20:28,499
moment. OK? Happy Mother's Day. Once

472
00:20:28,499 --> 00:20:30,774
drug addicts have access to facilities

473
00:20:30,774 --> 00:20:33,048
like this, they're well funded, well

474
00:20:33,048 --> 00:20:34,943
staffed, well situated. The objective

475
00:20:34,943 --> 00:20:37,597
must be from that perspective that you

476
00:20:37,597 --> 00:20:40,250
want people to get off drugs, you

477
00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:42,904
want people clean. We try to get

478
00:20:42,904 --> 00:20:45,557
them out of this, but it seems

479
00:20:45,557 --> 00:20:48,211
hard. You just need to be very

480
00:20:48,211 --> 00:20:51,067
humble. About all of these things and

481
00:20:51,067 --> 00:20:53,840
say let's try it seems to work.

482
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,420
As a recovering addict, I questioned

483
00:21:03,420 --> 00:21:06,103
whether easy access to drugs and a

484
00:21:06,103 --> 00:21:08,787
safe place to use them is ultimately

485
00:21:08,787 --> 00:21:11,668
helpful. Have you ever been

486
00:21:11,668 --> 00:21:14,307
clean? Yeah, of course. Many times. Many

487
00:21:14,307 --> 00:21:16,946
times. I'm actually quite happy. Yeah. A

488
00:21:16,946 --> 00:21:19,585
little bit high and a little dose.

489
00:21:19,585 --> 00:21:22,224
Yeah. But it could be worse, you

490
00:21:22,224 --> 00:21:24,863
know, Could be better, Could be worse.

491
00:21:24,863 --> 00:21:27,502
I say. All in all, I can

492
00:21:27,502 --> 00:21:29,010
consider myself very lucky.

493
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:34,835
Ohh that is is a well run

494
00:21:34,835 --> 00:21:37,810
crack house. They're sick people. This is

495
00:21:37,810 --> 00:21:40,785
like a modest step to providing some

496
00:21:40,785 --> 00:21:42,910
support. It's nothing. It's nothing

497
00:21:42,910 --> 00:21:45,885
compared to what needs to change, because

498
00:21:45,885 --> 00:21:48,860
what needs to change is spiritual and

499
00:21:48,860 --> 00:21:51,128
emotional perspective of drug. Action and

500
00:21:51,128 --> 00:21:52,766
that I don't feel like that's changed

501
00:21:52,766 --> 00:21:53,000
here.

502
00:21:55,620 --> 00:21:57,771
Whatever flaws there are in these

503
00:21:57,771 --> 00:21:59,922
incremental measures made in Burn, the

504
00:21:59,922 --> 00:22:01,715
charges leveled against their own

505
00:22:01,715 --> 00:22:03,866
government are much more severe. It

506
00:22:03,866 --> 00:22:06,017
doesn't treat the real problem. There

507
00:22:06,017 --> 00:22:08,168
aren't drug consumption rooms in Britain,

508
00:22:08,168 --> 00:22:10,319
but supplying illegal drug to Britain's

509
00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:13,187
heroine addicts is a main plank of our

510
00:22:13,187 --> 00:22:14,980
governments policy. Every day 320,000.

511
00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:17,274
Headaches get a legal fix of methadone.

512
00:22:17,274 --> 00:22:19,489
The policy is called harm reduction. But

513
00:22:19,489 --> 00:22:21,703
this policy fails to bring addicts into

514
00:22:21,703 --> 00:22:23,918
recovery or to address the core issues

515
00:22:23,918 --> 00:22:26,765
behind it, a point I try to make when

516
00:22:26,765 --> 00:22:28,347
journalists question me about methadone.

517
00:22:28,347 --> 00:22:30,877
I mean, there are, you know, 10s of

518
00:22:30,877 --> 00:22:32,776
thousands, well over 40,000 people on

519
00:22:32,776 --> 00:22:34,357
government treatment programs who've been

520
00:22:34,357 --> 00:22:36,683
on methadone. Four years or more, What

521
00:22:36,683 --> 00:22:38,942
would your message be to to ministers

522
00:22:38,942 --> 00:22:41,523
when they look at those kind of figures

523
00:22:41,523 --> 00:22:44,104
on their desks? Well, I don't think that

524
00:22:44,104 --> 00:22:46,686
anyone that's on methadone, as far as I'm

525
00:22:46,686 --> 00:22:48,299
concerned, hasn't been given the

526
00:22:48,299 --> 00:22:50,235
opportunity to get into recovery. Of

527
00:22:50,235 --> 00:22:51,848
course, methadone, Subutex and other

528
00:22:51,848 --> 00:22:54,107
substances can be used to ameliorate the

529
00:22:54,107 --> 00:22:56,350
horror of the active addiction. The legal

530
00:22:56,350 --> 00:22:58,590
substances, but only as part of a private

531
00:22:58,590 --> 00:23:00,270
process leading towards abstinence. A lot

532
00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:03,070
of a lot of addicts will say, well if I

533
00:23:03,070 --> 00:23:05,030
didn't have that actually I wouldn't be

534
00:23:05,030 --> 00:23:06,990
in treatment at all. When you're talking

535
00:23:06,990 --> 00:23:08,670
about, as you've just mentioned, people

536
00:23:08,670 --> 00:23:10,350
for over 4 years, people anecdotally

537
00:23:10,350 --> 00:23:11,750
10/12/15 years, obviously there's no

538
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:13,430
solution. There's just the decision of

539
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:15,950
life people off, get them out of the way.

540
00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:17,860
Parking on methadone? And is that what

541
00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:19,701
you think that the government are really

542
00:23:19,701 --> 00:23:21,541
doing? I suppose so. It's not very

543
00:23:21,541 --> 00:23:23,382
popular cause is it? Drug addicts? Bit

544
00:23:23,382 --> 00:23:25,222
annoying flaky looking folk who wants to

545
00:23:25,222 --> 00:23:26,800
be coughing up money for them.

546
00:23:33,860 --> 00:23:36,006
In the first documentary we made about

547
00:23:36,006 --> 00:23:38,152
addiction, I came across Karen, a woman

548
00:23:38,152 --> 00:23:40,299
who'd been on methadone for 15 years,

549
00:23:40,299 --> 00:23:42,445
ever higher doses, but still topped up

550
00:23:42,445 --> 00:23:44,897
every day with heroin and cocaine. As a

551
00:23:44,897 --> 00:23:47,350
result, she'd been in and out of prison

552
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:50,171
for years too. Yeah, I don't

553
00:23:50,171 --> 00:23:52,905
know why, but I I can't get it, and

554
00:23:52,905 --> 00:23:55,032
it's really, really, really hard. When I

555
00:23:55,032 --> 00:23:57,462
met Karen, she was a candidate for the

556
00:23:57,462 --> 00:23:59,892
bone yard, and I've assumed she'd be dead

557
00:23:59,892 --> 00:24:01,411
within six months. Fortunately, she

558
00:24:01,411 --> 00:24:02,930
agreed to go into rehab.

559
00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:07,640
Every instrument, yeah, that is the plan.

560
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,530
Remember thinking of actually your inner

561
00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:15,407
treatment center. Now we've got you out

562
00:24:15,407 --> 00:24:17,553
of that environment, don't get up. And I

563
00:24:17,553 --> 00:24:19,968
could see that she was going to, and it

564
00:24:19,968 --> 00:24:22,650
made me so angry. It made me so angry. Do

565
00:24:22,650 --> 00:24:24,260
you Remember Me shouting at you

566
00:24:24,260 --> 00:24:26,406
frequently down the phone when I was in

567
00:24:26,406 --> 00:24:28,284
treatment then I've ever got that angry

568
00:24:28,284 --> 00:24:30,430
with the person that I've not been in.

569
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:33,953
As is common with the disease of

570
00:24:33,953 --> 00:24:35,636
addiction, it took several attempts for

571
00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:37,319
Karen to embrace the principles of

572
00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:38,721
abstinence based recovery. The relapse

573
00:24:38,721 --> 00:24:40,684
that happened after the second time was,

574
00:24:40,684 --> 00:24:42,928
I think the word is, horrific. Why? What

575
00:24:42,928 --> 00:24:45,171
happened? I just felt worse than I'd ever

576
00:24:45,171 --> 00:24:47,415
felt before because I knew I could be

577
00:24:47,415 --> 00:24:50,220
clean. I knew I didn't have to use, but I

578
00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:51,714
was. Mentally and physically addicted to

579
00:24:51,714 --> 00:24:53,755
the game. By the time I decided ohh that

580
00:24:53,755 --> 00:24:56,639
was a bad idea and I was just. Beaten

581
00:24:56,639 --> 00:24:59,597
and broken, now you are clean. When I got

582
00:24:59,597 --> 00:25:02,555
clean this time I just kept a hold of

583
00:25:02,555 --> 00:25:05,514
that memory of how bad it was. 2 of

584
00:25:05,514 --> 00:25:07,815
my friends within the last eight weeks

585
00:25:07,815 --> 00:25:09,787
have relapsed and committed suicide and

586
00:25:09,787 --> 00:25:12,417
one of them had like 2 years clean.

587
00:25:12,417 --> 00:25:14,718
You're going to be listening to Karen.

588
00:25:14,718 --> 00:25:17,338
Helps us to realize how hard. The journey

589
00:25:17,338 --> 00:25:19,326
to recovery is but shows too, that

590
00:25:19,326 --> 00:25:21,314
addiction can be beaten. People can be

591
00:25:21,314 --> 00:25:23,586
saved, but like me, they can never forget

592
00:25:23,586 --> 00:25:25,574
what they're up against. No matter how

593
00:25:25,574 --> 00:25:28,130
long I get in recovery, it's not a given

594
00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:30,686
that I won't use the game. I don't want

595
00:25:30,686 --> 00:25:33,242
to use at the moment, but I wouldn't mind

596
00:25:33,242 --> 00:25:33,810
a drink.

597
00:25:37,940 --> 00:25:40,253
It's knowing people like Karen that keeps

598
00:25:40,253 --> 00:25:42,235
me pushing the abstinence message, and

599
00:25:42,235 --> 00:25:43,887
the first National Drug Recovery

600
00:25:43,887 --> 00:25:46,530
Conference is a natural place to do that.

601
00:25:46,530 --> 00:25:49,173
Here, though, I'm reminded of what I'm up

602
00:25:49,173 --> 00:25:50,825
against, trying to change government

603
00:25:50,825 --> 00:25:53,137
policy. The attitude of those in power

604
00:25:53,137 --> 00:25:55,120
towards addicts is the message one

605
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,255
speaker. An unusual political and drug

606
00:25:57,255 --> 00:25:59,471
expert wants to get across. It does say

607
00:25:59,471 --> 00:26:01,964
on on that card you've got in front of

608
00:26:01,964 --> 00:26:03,626
the programme, it says Lord Mancroft,

609
00:26:03,626 --> 00:26:05,842
House of Lords. But in the spirit that

610
00:26:05,842 --> 00:26:08,057
we're here today, I'd like to say I'm

611
00:26:08,057 --> 00:26:09,996
hello. I'm Benjamin. I'm an addict. I've

612
00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:12,489
been in the House of Lords for 27 years.

613
00:26:12,489 --> 00:26:14,982
I've been in recovery for 30. I have met

614
00:26:14,982 --> 00:26:16,884
and discussed drug policy. With every

615
00:26:16,884 --> 00:26:18,814
single home secretary, although the World

616
00:26:18,814 --> 00:26:20,423
Health Organization, the National Health

617
00:26:20,423 --> 00:26:22,354
Service, and God knows everybody else

618
00:26:22,354 --> 00:26:24,929
tells us that addiction is a disease, in

619
00:26:24,929 --> 00:26:27,181
the world of politics it still isn't

620
00:26:27,181 --> 00:26:29,434
really a disease. It's a moral decision,

621
00:26:29,434 --> 00:26:32,008
which is why it's still a crime. And

622
00:26:32,008 --> 00:26:34,905
until we get over that, we won't make the

623
00:26:34,905 --> 00:26:35,870
progress we need.

624
00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:47,393
A recent drug survey showed how at

625
00:26:47,393 --> 00:26:49,907
odds the government's position is with

626
00:26:49,907 --> 00:26:52,422
what normal British people actually do

627
00:26:52,422 --> 00:26:55,355
take or think 30% of normal British

628
00:26:55,355 --> 00:26:57,962
people have taken illegal drugs. That's

629
00:26:57,962 --> 00:26:59,970
15,000,000 people, 3,000,000 are still

630
00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:02,781
using them and 1,000,000 have a drug

631
00:27:02,781 --> 00:27:04,789
problem. That's a million unnecessary

632
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:07,600
criminals that the government are at war

633
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,010
with. So what does Lord Benjamin

634
00:27:10,010 --> 00:27:12,821
Mancroft, a former drug addict and posh

635
00:27:12,821 --> 00:27:14,829
person, think underpins the government's

636
00:27:14,829 --> 00:27:17,238
reluctance to change the ultimate weapon

637
00:27:17,238 --> 00:27:19,119
of. Criminalization of them in this

638
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,166
country is the 1970s. We Misuse of Drugs

639
00:27:21,166 --> 00:27:23,468
Act. But if if you look at the papers

640
00:27:23,468 --> 00:27:25,003
that are available, public papers about

641
00:27:25,003 --> 00:27:27,305
what the thinking was at that time in the

642
00:27:27,305 --> 00:27:29,352
late 60s and early 70s, what they were

643
00:27:29,352 --> 00:27:31,399
really saying is we think we've got this

644
00:27:31,399 --> 00:27:32,934
problem with drugs. We don't really

645
00:27:32,934 --> 00:27:34,980
understand it. We don't know what to do

646
00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:37,283
about it. So the obvious thing to do is

647
00:27:37,283 --> 00:27:39,817
to ban it. We'll, we'll sit on it and

648
00:27:39,817 --> 00:27:41,773
bearing in mind at that stage of

649
00:27:41,773 --> 00:27:43,450
proceedings, there were I think between

650
00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:45,406
4:00 and 6000 registered addicts in the

651
00:27:45,406 --> 00:27:47,641
whole of Britain. So it was a tiny

652
00:27:47,641 --> 00:27:49,598
problem and it just kept going since

653
00:27:49,598 --> 00:27:52,113
then. No ones had the nerve to make this

654
00:27:52,113 --> 00:27:53,789
huge change. The first thing that's

655
00:27:53,789 --> 00:27:55,745
stopping it is a generational thing and

656
00:27:55,745 --> 00:27:57,702
that is that people of my parents

657
00:27:57,702 --> 00:27:58,540
generation didn't understand.

658
00:28:00,490 --> 00:28:03,488
When I was using them, and that applies

659
00:28:03,488 --> 00:28:05,736
to politics as well, Margaret Thatcher,

660
00:28:05,736 --> 00:28:08,733
John Major did not come from a drug

661
00:28:08,733 --> 00:28:10,607
taking generation. They had probably

662
00:28:10,607 --> 00:28:13,230
probably never come across a joint in

663
00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:16,227
their lives. But now we have a younger

664
00:28:16,227 --> 00:28:18,101
generation of politicians, Tony Blair,

665
00:28:18,101 --> 00:28:20,591
David Cameron. Probation may have come

666
00:28:20,591 --> 00:28:22,437
across, well, if they haven't, they've

667
00:28:22,437 --> 00:28:24,590
done their argument that they're in touch

668
00:28:24,590 --> 00:28:26,436
goes out the window. It doesn't.

669
00:28:26,436 --> 00:28:28,897
Everybody in this, which is if you're in,

670
00:28:28,897 --> 00:28:31,359
you're a drug addict or you're not in

671
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,820
touch. Yeah, Which one is it, Cameron? We

672
00:28:33,820 --> 00:28:36,589
live in a democracy and our MP's will do

673
00:28:36,589 --> 00:28:38,435
what they think their constituents want.

674
00:28:38,435 --> 00:28:40,449
And currently. Large numbers of MP's

675
00:28:40,449 --> 00:28:42,322
don't think that their constituents want

676
00:28:42,322 --> 00:28:44,508
us to legalise drugs and whereas you

677
00:28:44,508 --> 00:28:47,318
might get an an MP sitting quietly in a

678
00:28:47,318 --> 00:28:49,816
room with the door closed to admit, yeah,

679
00:28:49,816 --> 00:28:52,314
I know, we really ought to legalise and

680
00:28:52,314 --> 00:28:54,187
collectively they won't at the moment

681
00:28:54,187 --> 00:28:56,373
because they perceive that they will lose

682
00:28:56,373 --> 00:28:58,559
votes by doing that. When you're in

683
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:00,120
politics, language is hugely important.

684
00:29:00,390 --> 00:29:02,161
We were talking about the issue around

685
00:29:02,161 --> 00:29:03,427
criminalization. You said that's what

686
00:29:03,427 --> 00:29:04,945
we're talking about is regulation because

687
00:29:04,945 --> 00:29:07,222
it let us those regulation is a bit more

688
00:29:07,222 --> 00:29:09,247
of an A conservative sound in ohh, I'd

689
00:29:09,247 --> 00:29:11,018
like to regulate like people aren't gonna

690
00:29:11,018 --> 00:29:13,295
go because it's not such an edgy word. If

691
00:29:13,295 --> 00:29:15,573
I said to anybody, do you think we should

692
00:29:15,573 --> 00:29:16,838
regulate drugs more efficiently, They

693
00:29:16,838 --> 00:29:18,356
say, yeah, of course. Yeah, well,

694
00:29:18,356 --> 00:29:19,875
actually that's legalization. Now, if you

695
00:29:19,875 --> 00:29:22,005
were to say to people. Actually we have

696
00:29:22,005 --> 00:29:23,859
between 250 and 350,000 very ill people

697
00:29:23,859 --> 00:29:25,713
in this country and they're wandering the

698
00:29:25,713 --> 00:29:27,567
streets and they're so ill that they've

699
00:29:27,567 --> 00:29:29,421
been driven to crime and they're living

700
00:29:29,421 --> 00:29:31,540
in the most appalling way. Do you think

701
00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:34,189
it's a good idea if we picked them up and

702
00:29:34,189 --> 00:29:35,778
put them into nice clean healthcare

703
00:29:35,778 --> 00:29:37,367
facilities, which would make them better

704
00:29:37,367 --> 00:29:39,486
so they don't have to commit crimes and

705
00:29:39,486 --> 00:29:41,870
actually they can go out and get a job?

706
00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:43,770
Have a family and become constructive

707
00:29:43,770 --> 00:29:45,600
members of society. Who wouldn't think

708
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:46,820
that's a good idea?

709
00:29:52,570 --> 00:29:54,326
Having found myself temporarily agreeing

710
00:29:54,326 --> 00:29:57,136
with a Tory peer, I rushed to the

711
00:29:57,136 --> 00:29:59,945
Midlands to relax. I came to Burton on

712
00:29:59,945 --> 00:30:02,404
Trent because I've heard about the work

713
00:30:02,404 --> 00:30:04,160
of recovering alcoholic Noreen Oliver.

714
00:30:05,310 --> 00:30:07,495
So some of the people knowing that we're

715
00:30:07,495 --> 00:30:09,680
going to meet here, that are working here

716
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,865
a matter of what months ago were junkies

717
00:30:11,865 --> 00:30:13,504
and Alcoholics, and now they're giving

718
00:30:13,504 --> 00:30:15,143
back to the community. They're not

719
00:30:15,143 --> 00:30:16,782
draining the community. These are cakes

720
00:30:16,782 --> 00:30:18,967
made by drug addicts. Yeah, from coke to

721
00:30:18,967 --> 00:30:21,699
cake. Noreen

722
00:30:21,699 --> 00:30:24,171
asked me to come today to her treatment

723
00:30:24,171 --> 00:30:26,335
center to see the graduation ceremony of

724
00:30:26,335 --> 00:30:29,116
a man called Jamie. Not, it has to be

725
00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:31,279
said, an overnight success story. Look at

726
00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:33,751
him as an addict. He had treatment here,

727
00:30:33,751 --> 00:30:35,915
but then relapsed and was soon living

728
00:30:35,915 --> 00:30:38,387
back on the streets. But Noreen knows the

729
00:30:38,387 --> 00:30:39,932
importance of persistence with drug

730
00:30:39,932 --> 00:30:41,889
addicts and. Now, Jamie completed 18

731
00:30:41,889 --> 00:30:44,428
weeks of rehab, you know, now that the

732
00:30:44,428 --> 00:30:46,967
hard work starts, now you've now got to

733
00:30:46,967 --> 00:30:49,188
look after your recovery, you know, and

734
00:30:49,188 --> 00:30:51,409
that means you've got to attend your

735
00:30:51,409 --> 00:30:53,313
aftercare. You've got to attend your

736
00:30:53,313 --> 00:30:55,535
meetings and let everybody know that in

737
00:30:55,535 --> 00:30:57,756
this community that you can recover from

738
00:30:57,756 --> 00:30:59,660
drug misuse. Yeah. Pleasure. Thank you.

739
00:31:01,410 --> 00:31:03,534
Cheers. All right mate. What I know is

740
00:31:03,534 --> 00:31:05,658
like at the moment you are clean from

741
00:31:05,658 --> 00:31:07,782
drugs and alcohol today, so you've got it

742
00:31:07,782 --> 00:31:10,172
at this moment. What I felt myself when I

743
00:31:10,172 --> 00:31:12,296
was using and drinking is that I didn't

744
00:31:12,296 --> 00:31:14,420
have a choice. Now that I'm in recovery,

745
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:16,810
I feel like I have got a choice. You've

746
00:31:16,810 --> 00:31:19,199
got that now. So what what I think is

747
00:31:19,199 --> 00:31:21,058
important, James, to know you don't have

748
00:31:21,058 --> 00:31:23,825
to go back now. And I'm glad to be

749
00:31:23,825 --> 00:31:26,001
in recovery with you, mate. Nice work.

750
00:31:26,001 --> 00:31:27,556
Cheers. Cheers, man. Jamie's nephew

751
00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:30,043
Steven has turned up too to welcome his

752
00:31:30,043 --> 00:31:32,531
uncle back into the family and provide us

753
00:31:32,531 --> 00:31:34,397
with the necessary tear jerk moment.

754
00:31:34,397 --> 00:31:36,573
You're my best uncle. Obviously I know

755
00:31:36,573 --> 00:31:38,128
everything you've been through. I'm

756
00:31:38,128 --> 00:31:40,926
really proud of you. We all are. And see

757
00:31:40,926 --> 00:31:42,590
you sat there today's. Brilliant.

758
00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:44,760
Honestly, I can't wait till you're back.

759
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:49,420
Ohh yeah.

760
00:31:52,980 --> 00:31:54,290
All right. Cheers, Fat Steven.

761
00:31:55,890 --> 00:31:57,190
12 and half.

762
00:31:59,990 --> 00:32:01,634
I've got a dog sitting down there, all

763
00:32:01,634 --> 00:32:01,840
right.

764
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,009
But I don't. Now on a serious note, you

765
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:09,789
know, me getting through this today is

766
00:32:09,789 --> 00:32:11,824
through you lot, you know. I mean, you

767
00:32:11,824 --> 00:32:14,113
can't do it on your own. With all this

768
00:32:14,113 --> 00:32:16,147
together, we can do anything. I mean that

769
00:32:16,147 --> 00:32:16,910
from my heart.

770
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,608
I suppose this is the moment when

771
00:32:32,608 --> 00:32:34,603
Noreen's own experience of recovery can

772
00:32:34,603 --> 00:32:37,263
really kick in, if addicts just go back

773
00:32:37,263 --> 00:32:39,959
to their old world, their old habits. Are

774
00:32:39,959 --> 00:32:41,512
likely to recommence so she deliberately

775
00:32:41,512 --> 00:32:43,324
breaks the cycle that's allowed to have

776
00:32:43,324 --> 00:32:45,654
his phone back now there you go. This has

777
00:32:45,654 --> 00:32:47,725
been blanked. I mean all the old drug

778
00:32:47,725 --> 00:32:49,796
dealers are gone. I mean it's brand new

779
00:32:49,796 --> 00:32:51,867
so that's the phone you had before, but

780
00:32:51,867 --> 00:32:53,679
it's been cleaned up. You've cleaned up

781
00:32:53,679 --> 00:32:55,491
your phones cleaned up. I've not even

782
00:32:55,491 --> 00:32:57,821
made a call on it yet. I'm not accusing

783
00:32:57,821 --> 00:32:58,080
you.

784
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:02,893
The next thing Noreen does is stop

785
00:33:02,893 --> 00:33:04,876
recovering addicts returning to their old

786
00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:06,859
horns. She's taken over properties nearby

787
00:33:06,859 --> 00:33:09,503
and turned them into flats for them to

788
00:33:09,503 --> 00:33:12,478
live in. Ohh, you got your own room and

789
00:33:12,478 --> 00:33:14,130
everything was sweet as well.

790
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,903
When he was drinking and using did you

791
00:33:16,903 --> 00:33:18,595
get in a lot of trouble with old billing

792
00:33:18,595 --> 00:33:20,286
that I've never been to prison for like 2

793
00:33:20,286 --> 00:33:23,070
years suspended for?Intense supply with

794
00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:25,838
a Class A drug, which was Aaron. So now I

795
00:33:25,838 --> 00:33:27,776
suppose you're out of that sort of

796
00:33:27,776 --> 00:33:29,714
criminal kind of behaviour as well. Yeah.

797
00:33:29,714 --> 00:33:31,651
Yeah. Well, that's what this place is

798
00:33:31,651 --> 00:33:33,866
drummed into me. You know, it's, it's not

799
00:33:33,866 --> 00:33:35,803
the drinking the drugs. What the problem

800
00:33:35,803 --> 00:33:38,572
is. It is, is you know, it's down to you.

801
00:33:38,572 --> 00:33:40,509
Time to take responsibility and grow up

802
00:33:40,509 --> 00:33:41,893
entrepreneurial. Noreen also creates jobs

803
00:33:41,893 --> 00:33:44,744
here. She set up this cafe to

804
00:33:44,744 --> 00:33:46,978
give recovering addicts and Alcoholics a

805
00:33:46,978 --> 00:33:49,584
place to work and vital experience. The

806
00:33:49,584 --> 00:33:52,562
result of all this is an astonishing 68%

807
00:33:52,562 --> 00:33:54,796
success rate of people completing rehab

808
00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:57,030
and not representing. That means coming

809
00:33:57,030 --> 00:33:59,636
back again, relapsed and all full of

810
00:33:59,636 --> 00:34:02,536
drugs and apologies within a year. This

811
00:34:02,536 --> 00:34:05,472
is the first time playing for me in 20

812
00:34:05,472 --> 00:34:08,407
years. Wow, you know, been in and out of

813
00:34:08,407 --> 00:34:10,364
jail, just taking basically not caring

814
00:34:10,364 --> 00:34:11,995
about myself, anybody, anything, you

815
00:34:11,995 --> 00:34:14,604
know, living on the street. But I've come

816
00:34:14,604 --> 00:34:17,214
here because, you know, I want to change

817
00:34:17,214 --> 00:34:19,823
and this place just give me that chance.

818
00:34:19,823 --> 00:34:21,780
So Norah's facility is pretty impressive.

819
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,647
All the more so because she does it

820
00:34:24,647 --> 00:34:27,033
without any government funding. We have a

821
00:34:27,033 --> 00:34:29,419
huge waiting list. And when you think

822
00:34:29,419 --> 00:34:31,805
other counties just don't do rehab at

823
00:34:31,805 --> 00:34:34,531
all, you know, there's 50% of the local

824
00:34:34,531 --> 00:34:36,576
authorities have cut their budgets to

825
00:34:36,576 --> 00:34:38,622
rehabs. They're diverting all the drugs

826
00:34:38,622 --> 00:34:41,348
money and using it for other things, you

827
00:34:41,348 --> 00:34:43,581
know, and. I appreciate why. Because they

828
00:34:43,581 --> 00:34:44,750
can. Because they can.

829
00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:49,175
Jamie, you look fantastic from the man

830
00:34:49,175 --> 00:34:52,129
that came in that was just a wreck.

831
00:34:52,129 --> 00:34:53,975
You look absolutely fantastic. What

832
00:34:53,975 --> 00:34:56,190
Noreen does is effective. Think what

833
00:34:56,190 --> 00:34:58,775
difference it would make if she had

834
00:34:58,775 --> 00:35:00,621
proper government funding if other

835
00:35:00,621 --> 00:35:02,468
communities built around recovering drug

836
00:35:02,468 --> 00:35:04,683
addicts could be established. The cops

837
00:35:04,683 --> 00:35:07,392
drug taking is illegal. There is a

838
00:35:07,392 --> 00:35:09,261
stigma around addiction that prevents

839
00:35:09,261 --> 00:35:12,252
progress This is why I think we should

840
00:35:12,252 --> 00:35:14,869
decriminalize all drugs and why in recent

841
00:35:14,869 --> 00:35:17,861
months I've put more and more effort into

842
00:35:17,861 --> 00:35:20,478
taking my argument into the public arena.

843
00:35:20,478 --> 00:35:22,721
But one question is continually asked,

844
00:35:22,721 --> 00:35:25,712
don't you think one of the reasons why

845
00:35:25,712 --> 00:35:28,467
politicians and. By society tends to keep

846
00:35:28,467 --> 00:35:31,407
drugs illegal is one of fear fear that

847
00:35:31,407 --> 00:35:34,347
that kids that young people will turn on

848
00:35:34,347 --> 00:35:36,919
perhaps needlessly. I'm not a big woohoo

849
00:35:36,919 --> 00:35:39,858
let's take drugs type person drugs can be

850
00:35:39,858 --> 00:35:41,696
incredibly dangerous and negative What

851
00:35:41,696 --> 00:35:44,268
I'm saying is making them illegal isn't

852
00:35:44,268 --> 00:35:46,473
working. It doesn't work. It doesn't

853
00:35:46,473 --> 00:35:48,210
prevent. People from using drugs.

854
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:52,598
I'm sure John Snow is just being a

855
00:35:52,598 --> 00:35:55,205
devil's advocate in his role as a news

856
00:35:55,205 --> 00:35:56,835
journalist, but it's always interesting

857
00:35:56,835 --> 00:35:59,443
to hear the other side of any argument.

858
00:35:59,443 --> 00:36:01,725
So we spoke to Professor Neil Mckegney

859
00:36:01,725 --> 00:36:04,007
from the centre of Drug Misuse Research.

860
00:36:04,007 --> 00:36:06,288
The temptation to use drugs, the allure

861
00:36:06,288 --> 00:36:09,222
of drugs is so great, there has to be

862
00:36:09,222 --> 00:36:11,781
some sort of. Pension, you might say it's

863
00:36:11,781 --> 00:36:13,897
hard to make the case for sanctions

864
00:36:13,897 --> 00:36:15,710
because we're all we're, we're all

865
00:36:15,710 --> 00:36:17,826
humanitarian and we like the idea of

866
00:36:17,826 --> 00:36:19,337
providing treatment and that's socially

867
00:36:19,337 --> 00:36:20,848
acceptable, personally acceptable. But if

868
00:36:20,848 --> 00:36:23,266
you don't have any barrier to use, then

869
00:36:23,266 --> 00:36:25,986
it seems to me you run the real risk

870
00:36:25,986 --> 00:36:28,404
of use increasing. But I also think it's

871
00:36:28,404 --> 00:36:30,520
really important not just to see drugs.

872
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,136
From the perspective of the addict, I

873
00:36:33,136 --> 00:36:36,035
mean, it's true that you are a very

874
00:36:36,035 --> 00:36:37,846
passionate supporter of treatment and

875
00:36:37,846 --> 00:36:40,745
recovery, but it's also true, and, and it

876
00:36:40,745 --> 00:36:43,281
may be unfashionable to say it, that

877
00:36:43,281 --> 00:36:45,455
society still needs protection from the

878
00:36:45,455 --> 00:36:47,267
amount of criminality that's associated

879
00:36:47,267 --> 00:36:50,165
with drug use. So whilst prison may not

880
00:36:50,165 --> 00:36:52,550
be necessary. Welcome option for drug you

881
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:54,139
who's offending it's nevertheless an

882
00:36:54,139 --> 00:36:56,047
important part of the protection of

883
00:36:56,047 --> 00:36:58,273
society needs to have from those who

884
00:36:58,273 --> 00:37:00,180
actually committing those crimes to be

885
00:37:00,180 --> 00:37:03,042
like you know frankly or for me this is

886
00:37:03,042 --> 00:37:04,631
a personal issue. You're personally

887
00:37:04,631 --> 00:37:06,857
calling me a criminal for something I

888
00:37:06,857 --> 00:37:09,082
help you're sitting there saying I'm a

889
00:37:09,082 --> 00:37:10,990
criminal, but you've accepted that you.

890
00:37:11,090 --> 00:37:13,255
You have already don't accept no, but you

891
00:37:13,255 --> 00:37:15,149
have already accepted but you I think

892
00:37:15,149 --> 00:37:16,773
society is making a massive mistake

893
00:37:16,773 --> 00:37:18,397
calling people that are unwell friendly.

894
00:37:18,397 --> 00:37:20,021
You've already accepted that you have

895
00:37:20,021 --> 00:37:22,186
broken laws. Now in the context of your

896
00:37:22,186 --> 00:37:24,080
own. You made the situation much worse,

897
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,516
Neil, and I'm not going to be an advocate

898
00:37:26,516 --> 00:37:28,140
for the current situation being ripped

899
00:37:28,140 --> 00:37:30,305
roaring success. No, it is not so bad

900
00:37:30,305 --> 00:37:32,470
that you would need to say well, let's.

901
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,727
Actually do away with criminalization

902
00:37:34,727 --> 00:37:37,328
entirely. There is still a role

903
00:37:37,328 --> 00:37:39,929
for the criminal sanction against drug

904
00:37:39,929 --> 00:37:42,530
use. For me, the experiment of

905
00:37:42,530 --> 00:37:45,131
prohibition has lasted a century and

906
00:37:45,131 --> 00:37:47,732
has done nothing but increase at

907
00:37:47,732 --> 00:37:50,333
a black market economy, gangster warlords

908
00:37:50,333 --> 00:37:52,500
across Mexico, suffering and poverty.

909
00:37:52,610 --> 00:37:54,832
Wherever it's been introduced and so on a

910
00:37:54,832 --> 00:37:56,777
personal level and on a political level,

911
00:37:56,777 --> 00:37:58,999
it just isn't working. It's time to try

912
00:37:58,999 --> 00:38:00,943
something else. What I'm saying is that

913
00:38:00,943 --> 00:38:03,166
you can look at drug use from the

914
00:38:03,166 --> 00:38:05,110
perspective of the drug user, but you

915
00:38:05,110 --> 00:38:07,332
also have a moral obligation to look at

916
00:38:07,332 --> 00:38:09,277
drug use from the perspective of society.

917
00:38:09,277 --> 00:38:11,221
The majority of people are not using

918
00:38:11,221 --> 00:38:13,395
these drugs now from the. Aspects of the

919
00:38:13,395 --> 00:38:15,744
drug to use. You can say I don't want all

920
00:38:15,744 --> 00:38:17,859
this hassle in my life, I don't wanna be

921
00:38:17,859 --> 00:38:19,268
criminalised, I don't want the police

922
00:38:19,268 --> 00:38:21,148
knocking down my door. No, I agree with

923
00:38:21,148 --> 00:38:23,027
you, I wouldn't want my door knocked down

924
00:38:23,027 --> 00:38:24,907
either. But at the same time it is

925
00:38:24,907 --> 00:38:26,552
important that society has a standard. I

926
00:38:26,552 --> 00:38:28,431
think the important shift that we need to

927
00:38:28,431 --> 00:38:30,780
make as a culture is to end this sort of

928
00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:32,425
moral judgment of people that have an

929
00:38:32,425 --> 00:38:34,012
illness. And treat them compassionately.

930
00:38:34,012 --> 00:38:36,808
Why This is why what, what, what? I mean,

931
00:38:36,808 --> 00:38:39,292
why what? What's the problem with a moral

932
00:38:39,292 --> 00:38:40,845
judgment? It's not like criminalisation

933
00:38:40,845 --> 00:38:43,330
hasn't been given a fair crack of the

934
00:38:43,330 --> 00:38:46,125
whip. So I hear that. But you know what

935
00:38:46,125 --> 00:38:47,678
you're doing there, Russell. You're

936
00:38:47,678 --> 00:38:50,163
taking a small sector of society in, in

937
00:38:50,163 --> 00:38:51,716
numerical terms, the addict population

938
00:38:51,716 --> 00:38:53,579
and you're saying societies entire drug

939
00:38:53,579 --> 00:38:55,710
laws. Could be shaped to meet the needs

940
00:38:55,710 --> 00:38:57,699
of that small sector of people who have

941
00:38:57,699 --> 00:38:59,439
become addicted, but that doesn't make a

942
00:38:59,439 --> 00:39:01,427
lot of sense because the vast majority of

943
00:39:01,427 --> 00:39:02,670
other people are not addicted.

944
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:08,709
But it's not just the suffering of

945
00:39:08,709 --> 00:39:10,917
addicts I see, It's the misery, violence

946
00:39:10,917 --> 00:39:12,810
and degradation in communities in Britain

947
00:39:12,810 --> 00:39:15,019
and across the world that current drug

948
00:39:15,019 --> 00:39:18,011
laws exacerbate. So when invited

949
00:39:18,011 --> 00:39:20,945
to speak at a UN conference on drugs

950
00:39:20,945 --> 00:39:23,880
in Vienna, I take the opportunity to try

951
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,448
and persuade the 193 countries that still

952
00:39:26,448 --> 00:39:28,282
criminalized drugs to rethink what

953
00:39:28,282 --> 00:39:30,484
they're doing. Mike Trace runs an

954
00:39:30,484 --> 00:39:32,318
international committee on drugs policy

955
00:39:32,318 --> 00:39:35,253
and has organized for me to meet up

956
00:39:35,253 --> 00:39:37,565
with unusual looking delegates. From all

957
00:39:37,565 --> 00:39:40,345
over the world. You look great. You look

958
00:39:40,345 --> 00:39:42,430
it's like a Star Wars intergalactic

959
00:39:42,430 --> 00:39:44,515
confederation. What I'm most want to

960
00:39:44,515 --> 00:39:46,600
understand is where the debate is

961
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,033
currently and where it would ideally be

962
00:39:49,033 --> 00:39:51,813
in two years time. It's a, I think

963
00:39:51,813 --> 00:39:53,898
an interesting dynamic that's playing out

964
00:39:53,898 --> 00:39:56,678
at the moment. The death penalty has been

965
00:39:56,678 --> 00:39:58,590
a big one. This year.

966
00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:03,367
Mr. Fedotov from Russia, if something

967
00:40:03,367 --> 00:40:06,105
that's now completely legal in Uruguay, I

968
00:40:06,105 --> 00:40:08,453
producing and selling cannabis is, is

969
00:40:08,453 --> 00:40:11,191
100% legal there, but in Singapore it

970
00:40:11,191 --> 00:40:13,929
can get you the death penalty, doesn't

971
00:40:13,929 --> 00:40:16,668
suggest consensus, he said. It's a very

972
00:40:16,668 --> 00:40:17,450
broad consensus.

973
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,237
It's funny, but also appalling that in

974
00:40:22,237 --> 00:40:24,794
some countries you face the death penalty

975
00:40:24,794 --> 00:40:26,986
for cannabis. Reefer Madness was a

976
00:40:26,986 --> 00:40:28,812
persuasive piece of propaganda, but

977
00:40:28,812 --> 00:40:31,369
hanging? That's why it's important to see

978
00:40:31,369 --> 00:40:33,926
whether these fears are realised. When a

979
00:40:33,926 --> 00:40:35,752
country does decriminalise drugs, what

980
00:40:35,752 --> 00:40:38,309
happens? Does drug use rise? In Portugal,

981
00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:41,058
we have. Case study since 2001, drug

982
00:40:41,058 --> 00:40:43,397
possession is no longer a criminal

983
00:40:43,397 --> 00:40:46,125
offence. I want to introduce Russell to

984
00:40:46,125 --> 00:40:48,852
one of my heroes, Joel Gulab from

985
00:40:48,852 --> 00:40:50,801
Portugal, who introduced the big

986
00:40:50,801 --> 00:40:51,970
decriminalisation of Portugal.

987
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:58,019
11-12 years of of the those

988
00:40:58,019 --> 00:41:00,849
policies in practice. So we acted

989
00:41:00,849 --> 00:41:03,678
as a living laboratory. What are

990
00:41:03,678 --> 00:41:06,508
the most positive and negative surprises?

991
00:41:06,508 --> 00:41:09,337
Most positive is decrease in the

992
00:41:09,337 --> 00:41:12,167
number of 18 infections. That was

993
00:41:12,167 --> 00:41:13,110
really dramatic.

994
00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:17,819
Yes, we have a small increase

995
00:41:17,819 --> 00:41:20,778
in the average use of illicit

996
00:41:20,778 --> 00:41:22,751
substances among general population.

997
00:41:22,751 --> 00:41:25,710
Small increases in recreational use, yes,

998
00:41:25,710 --> 00:41:27,190
but on prime.

999
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:30,784
There's a decrease in the petty crimes

1000
00:41:30,784 --> 00:41:33,019
because I suppose the live experience is

1001
00:41:33,019 --> 00:41:34,615
nullify the conservative arguments to

1002
00:41:34,615 --> 00:41:37,169
keep things the same. We don't know what

1003
00:41:37,169 --> 00:41:39,084
would happen and it's dangerous. There

1004
00:41:39,084 --> 00:41:41,318
will be crimes. These places will become

1005
00:41:41,318 --> 00:41:43,553
drug havens. In Portugal this hasn't been

1006
00:41:43,553 --> 00:41:46,106
the case. So this is really good news

1007
00:41:46,106 --> 00:41:48,022
with drug related deaths down an

1008
00:41:48,022 --> 00:41:50,336
impressive 75. Percent their policy of

1009
00:41:50,336 --> 00:41:52,746
sending addicts to treatment rather than

1010
00:41:52,746 --> 00:41:55,557
court and prison seems to be working

1011
00:41:55,557 --> 00:41:58,368
well. It's not supported by all the

1012
00:41:58,368 --> 00:42:00,375
politics, even even Conservative party.

1013
00:42:00,375 --> 00:42:03,186
Those who voted against no one would

1014
00:42:03,186 --> 00:42:05,997
go back to here. The other side.

1015
00:42:05,997 --> 00:42:08,808
I asked Mike to introduce me to

1016
00:42:08,808 --> 00:42:11,193
someone. From a part of the world

1017
00:42:11,193 --> 00:42:12,788
extensively involved in drug trafficking

1018
00:42:12,788 --> 00:42:15,020
and production, but where drugs are still

1019
00:42:15,020 --> 00:42:17,571
illegal. I'm the chairman of what we call

1020
00:42:17,571 --> 00:42:19,803
West African Commission on Drug. I wonder

1021
00:42:19,803 --> 00:42:22,354
if it would work for the whole planet.

1022
00:42:22,354 --> 00:42:24,587
The the experiment has been tried in

1023
00:42:24,587 --> 00:42:26,181
Portugal and Switzerland and the

1024
00:42:26,181 --> 00:42:28,094
legislation that's been tried in Uruguay.

1025
00:42:28,094 --> 00:42:30,872
Where do you think?I believe that

1026
00:42:30,872 --> 00:42:33,536
we should keep our eyes on

1027
00:42:33,536 --> 00:42:36,200
those experiments. Let. Let's call them

1028
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,420
experience. Call them experiments. Yeah,

1029
00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:40,640
let's call them experiment. They're

1030
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,860
experiments. Now, you see those

1031
00:42:42,860 --> 00:42:45,524
experiments succeed. How long? It's too

1032
00:42:45,524 --> 00:42:48,188
early. Let's give it five years.

1033
00:42:48,188 --> 00:42:51,085
Another five years. After five years,

1034
00:42:51,085 --> 00:42:54,040
yeah, we could say this has been a good

1035
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,010
experiment. Yeah. Despite his talk of

1036
00:42:56,010 --> 00:42:58,309
waiting five years, a couple of months

1037
00:42:58,309 --> 00:43:00,936
later I read that the West African Drug

1038
00:43:00,936 --> 00:43:02,906
Commission changed policy. It now says

1039
00:43:02,906 --> 00:43:04,876
the harms of criminalization far outweigh

1040
00:43:04,876 --> 00:43:06,846
those of decriminalization. So all drug

1041
00:43:06,846 --> 00:43:09,473
use should not be considered a crime, but

1042
00:43:09,473 --> 00:43:12,408
a matter. Of public health, we'll keep

1043
00:43:12,408 --> 00:43:14,110
in touch. Ohh, alright.

1044
00:43:22,690 --> 00:43:24,830
I was surprised that despite asking Mike

1045
00:43:24,830 --> 00:43:26,970
to approach other delegates, no one else

1046
00:43:26,970 --> 00:43:29,110
agreed to debate their position with me.

1047
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,715
I'm going to ask you about your opinion

1048
00:43:32,715 --> 00:43:34,811
on cannabis legalization and if we should

1049
00:43:34,811 --> 00:43:36,907
take a similar approach to legalize and

1050
00:43:36,907 --> 00:43:38,703
regulate other drugs. I completely agree

1051
00:43:38,703 --> 00:43:40,799
with the legalization of cannabis and I

1052
00:43:40,799 --> 00:43:42,895
think we should legalize and regulate all

1053
00:43:42,895 --> 00:43:44,991
other drugs. That's what I think should

1054
00:43:44,991 --> 00:43:46,787
happen globally as quickly as possible.

1055
00:43:46,787 --> 00:43:49,182
Shouldn't wait for two years to get on.

1056
00:43:49,182 --> 00:43:51,678
Do it now global. Drug laws need to

1057
00:43:51,678 --> 00:43:53,505
change because thousands of people are

1058
00:43:53,505 --> 00:43:55,333
dying, there's an illicit economy, people

1059
00:43:55,333 --> 00:43:57,465
are getting like butchered left and right

1060
00:43:57,465 --> 00:43:59,596
all over Mexico. People are getting hung

1061
00:43:59,596 --> 00:44:01,728
in Pakistan and all over Malaysia for

1062
00:44:01,728 --> 00:44:03,860
something that's not a moral issue. It's

1063
00:44:03,860 --> 00:44:06,601
not a moral issue, it's a health issue. I

1064
00:44:06,601 --> 00:44:08,428
think we all agree within ourselves,

1065
00:44:08,428 --> 00:44:10,560
don't we? We already know the answer.

1066
00:44:10,690 --> 00:44:12,761
Knowledge is acting on wisdom. Don't know

1067
00:44:12,761 --> 00:44:14,831
why we're pretending that we don't know

1068
00:44:14,831 --> 00:44:17,197
what to do. It's like a bizarre facade.

1069
00:44:17,197 --> 00:44:19,564
It's peculiar that we would do this as

1070
00:44:19,564 --> 00:44:21,338
human beings. Why aren't we? It's

1071
00:44:21,338 --> 00:44:21,930
confusing Mike.

1072
00:44:26,890 --> 00:44:28,498
Whereas in Britain, obviously and

1073
00:44:28,498 --> 00:44:30,749
patriotically, where I want to see change

1074
00:44:30,749 --> 00:44:33,322
happen quickly, I asked Mike, who was one

1075
00:44:33,322 --> 00:44:35,573
of Britain's drug czar. Which is weird

1076
00:44:35,573 --> 00:44:38,146
why he thinks Britain isn't one of the

1077
00:44:38,146 --> 00:44:39,754
reformed countries, given that David

1078
00:44:39,754 --> 00:44:42,648
Cameron 10 years ago for it should be a

1079
00:44:42,648 --> 00:44:44,893
position. 1 was pretty vocal and as I

1080
00:44:44,893 --> 00:44:46,705
said, that the drug war wasn't working.

1081
00:44:46,705 --> 00:44:49,036
Yeah, he was. He was on a committee 10

1082
00:44:49,036 --> 00:44:51,108
years ago that said exactly that the drug

1083
00:44:51,108 --> 00:44:53,179
war is not working. And actually he said

1084
00:44:53,179 --> 00:44:55,251
the UK should go to the United Nations

1085
00:44:55,251 --> 00:44:56,805
and propose reform. Yeah, which nobody

1086
00:44:56,805 --> 00:44:59,395
did in those days. So it was quite a good

1087
00:44:59,395 --> 00:45:01,207
report. Now in government it's a very

1088
00:45:01,207 --> 00:45:02,761
difficult issue because the two parties

1089
00:45:02,761 --> 00:45:04,911
don't. Agree on it. And so they they

1090
00:45:04,911 --> 00:45:07,227
prefer not to talk about it, which is a

1091
00:45:07,227 --> 00:45:09,028
shame because the UK is potentially a

1092
00:45:09,028 --> 00:45:10,572
very progressive country, but we are

1093
00:45:10,572 --> 00:45:12,116
paralyzed at the moment. It's because

1094
00:45:12,116 --> 00:45:14,175
there's no votes in drugs. I think that's

1095
00:45:14,175 --> 00:45:15,976
the judgment they're making is, is you

1096
00:45:15,976 --> 00:45:18,549
take a big risk if you are looking as if

1097
00:45:18,549 --> 00:45:20,865
you want to be into drug reform. So most

1098
00:45:20,865 --> 00:45:22,923
politicians will say I don't want to be

1099
00:45:22,923 --> 00:45:25,417
criticised by the Daily Mail. My opposite

1100
00:45:25,417 --> 00:45:25,980
opponent.

1101
00:45:31,230 --> 00:45:33,766
But that feels like it's a utilization of

1102
00:45:33,766 --> 00:45:36,303
my skill set. And then here's the voice

1103
00:45:36,303 --> 00:45:38,839
over charged by my experiences at the UN.

1104
00:45:38,839 --> 00:45:41,058
I went back to confront Cameron knowing

1105
00:45:41,058 --> 00:45:43,912
that I had the mandate of most of the

1106
00:45:43,912 --> 00:45:45,180
people in Europe like.

1107
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,512
Obviously I'm interested to know what

1108
00:45:53,512 --> 00:45:55,649
David Cameron has changed his views, so

1109
00:45:55,649 --> 00:45:57,481
we requested an interview. Meanwhile, I

1110
00:45:57,481 --> 00:45:59,618
want to see how the current criminal

1111
00:45:59,618 --> 00:46:01,144
justice system has affected Samantha.

1112
00:46:01,144 --> 00:46:03,892
After I left her in the police cell, she

1113
00:46:03,892 --> 00:46:06,640
was taken to court and got a six week.

1114
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:08,594
Prison sentence After serving just three

1115
00:46:08,594 --> 00:46:10,477
weeks, Samantha was released with nowhere

1116
00:46:10,477 --> 00:46:12,361
to go. Extraordinarily, she broke into

1117
00:46:12,361 --> 00:46:14,244
the house where she was originally

1118
00:46:14,244 --> 00:46:16,442
arrested in. Turfed out of there, she

1119
00:46:16,442 --> 00:46:18,639
started living on the streets again, and

1120
00:46:18,639 --> 00:46:21,151
I think it's a fair bit, began taking

1121
00:46:21,151 --> 00:46:23,976
drugs. I was going to throw you off your

1122
00:46:23,976 --> 00:46:26,957
bike. We're gonna grab your fling you

1123
00:46:26,957 --> 00:46:27,610
off of it.

1124
00:46:32,220 --> 00:46:35,010
Right. Yeah. Absolutely brilliant.

1125
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:38,453
Imprisoned, Samantha became close with

1126
00:46:38,453 --> 00:46:41,337
Kelly, who's also a drug addict, and she

1127
00:46:41,337 --> 00:46:43,500
insisted that Kelly participate in our

1128
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:45,810
interview. I've smoked a little bit.

1129
00:46:45,810 --> 00:46:48,060
Yeah, I have. Yeah. But I suppose I don't

1130
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:50,060
know what it is. Remember when we spoke

1131
00:46:50,060 --> 00:46:52,310
on our show, you said that you would you

1132
00:46:52,310 --> 00:46:54,310
wanted to get clean. Can you really? Do

1133
00:46:54,310 --> 00:46:56,560
you want to get better? Yeah, But I can't

1134
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,560
look where I'm living. I'm all over the

1135
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,560
place. You know, I don't know what I'm

1136
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,560
saying. When that from the next it seems

1137
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,986
to be in prison in your life. The same

1138
00:47:04,986 --> 00:47:06,898
you're using about the same amount. So

1139
00:47:06,898 --> 00:47:09,082
you know, I'll be honest with you. I've

1140
00:47:09,082 --> 00:47:11,540
been doing a bag of day. I've been doing

1141
00:47:11,540 --> 00:47:13,997
about two white and one bag a day inside

1142
00:47:13,997 --> 00:47:15,909
the prison system doesn't really make any

1143
00:47:15,909 --> 00:47:18,093
difference to you using none at all. When

1144
00:47:18,093 --> 00:47:20,278
when you arrested me, I was on the

1145
00:47:20,278 --> 00:47:22,189
second. Can we rephrase that? I didn't

1146
00:47:22,189 --> 00:47:24,374
arrest you. I'm not Batman when I chatted

1147
00:47:24,374 --> 00:47:27,108
to you. On the phone and you're

1148
00:47:27,108 --> 00:47:30,072
like, you know, chaotic and man. Yeah,

1149
00:47:30,072 --> 00:47:33,037
no, no, no, I can't understand him.

1150
00:47:33,037 --> 00:47:36,001
He's so he's off. He's like, I

1151
00:47:36,001 --> 00:47:38,542
thought, what? What? Kill, kill, kill.

1152
00:47:38,542 --> 00:47:41,083
Russell Brains on the kill. Waiting,

1153
00:47:41,083 --> 00:47:43,860
waiting, waiting. Shots

1154
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:45,936
up what was good. It's like before when

1155
00:47:45,936 --> 00:47:48,013
you got when I arrested you. Like there's

1156
00:47:48,013 --> 00:47:50,350
time to sort of prepare it so you could

1157
00:47:50,350 --> 00:47:52,946
be all kind of yeah, I just want to get

1158
00:47:52,946 --> 00:47:55,022
clean and to be yourself. And that's what

1159
00:47:55,022 --> 00:47:57,099
you do. But like, the fact is, imagine

1160
00:47:57,099 --> 00:47:58,397
you're a person watching this

1161
00:47:58,397 --> 00:47:59,955
documentary. You're a person who's never

1162
00:47:59,955 --> 00:48:02,032
taken drugs in your life. You don't know

1163
00:48:02,032 --> 00:48:03,916
the first thing about. Better score.

1164
00:48:03,916 --> 00:48:05,583
You're saying there's a girl that's come

1165
00:48:05,583 --> 00:48:07,726
out because then it wants to be clean and

1166
00:48:07,726 --> 00:48:09,393
then no, no, you're not seeing that.

1167
00:48:09,393 --> 00:48:11,060
You're seeing someone who ain't taking it

1168
00:48:11,060 --> 00:48:12,251
seriously. You're seeing someone who's

1169
00:48:12,251 --> 00:48:14,156
like, ohh, I suppose Kelly, what is is

1170
00:48:14,156 --> 00:48:16,299
you know, if you think about that sort of

1171
00:48:16,299 --> 00:48:17,490
the nature of your using.

1172
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:22,388
Bad company. I just said about the year

1173
00:48:22,388 --> 00:48:24,636
and a half ago, where's your baby now?

1174
00:48:24,636 --> 00:48:26,885
He's going to care where? I don't know.

1175
00:48:26,885 --> 00:48:29,414
Soon as you give birth they take the baby

1176
00:48:29,414 --> 00:48:31,381
straight away because baby's going to be

1177
00:48:31,381 --> 00:48:33,067
clucking. Ohh because you're using things

1178
00:48:33,067 --> 00:48:35,597
like that. So what you do is you gets

1179
00:48:35,597 --> 00:48:37,564
touching for the first time, skin to

1180
00:48:37,564 --> 00:48:39,959
skin, then straight away they take. And

1181
00:48:39,959 --> 00:48:42,378
go and assess him. So it takes two weeks

1182
00:48:42,378 --> 00:48:44,528
for him to assess him because they need

1183
00:48:44,528 --> 00:48:46,947
to see for a whole week how his club's

1184
00:48:46,947 --> 00:48:49,634
going to be. And by the end of that seven

1185
00:48:49,634 --> 00:48:51,785
days they can tell you whether he needs

1186
00:48:51,785 --> 00:48:54,203
it or a morphine or not. By his high

1187
00:48:54,203 --> 00:48:56,085
pitched screams, by the way he shudders.

1188
00:48:56,085 --> 00:48:58,235
How do you feel about that? I hated

1189
00:48:58,235 --> 00:49:00,341
myself, I hated myself. That's so cool

1190
00:49:00,341 --> 00:49:01,530
mate. Yeah, it's article.

1191
00:49:19,550 --> 00:49:21,617
I just want some help. I just want to be

1192
00:49:21,617 --> 00:49:24,560
me again. That would be.

1193
00:49:26,330 --> 00:49:27,690
I don't wanna be like this.

1194
00:49:40,310 --> 00:49:42,802
I just want some help. I just want to be

1195
00:49:42,802 --> 00:49:45,708
human again. You know you're

1196
00:49:45,708 --> 00:49:45,910
not.

1197
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,881
, paint or decorate or what? A job. I

1198
00:49:50,881 --> 00:49:52,909
would, you know, go to work every morning

1199
00:49:52,909 --> 00:49:54,430
and think, yeah, I've done that.

1200
00:49:56,820 --> 00:49:58,937
Sitting there and drinking. Sitting a

1201
00:49:58,937 --> 00:50:01,407
******* Subway smoking this ship and that

1202
00:50:01,407 --> 00:50:04,297
ship. I want to show

1203
00:50:04,297 --> 00:50:05,726
the world that Kenny could be Kenny

1204
00:50:05,726 --> 00:50:08,620
again. You know, I mean, yes, I

1205
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:10,660
just need a bit of help and there's no

1206
00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:11,340
help out there.

1207
00:50:17,110 --> 00:50:18,933
What can you do as well, Sam? You've got

1208
00:50:18,933 --> 00:50:21,712
to do it. Be ready to hear

1209
00:50:21,712 --> 00:50:24,573
can yeah if you wanna do your own thing

1210
00:50:24,573 --> 00:50:27,117
under your own finger things out and I'll

1211
00:50:27,117 --> 00:50:29,660
always be there with you always find you

1212
00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:31,250
and make sure you're right.

1213
00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:34,980
I don't think you're ready. I don't.

1214
00:50:36,750 --> 00:50:38,350
I'd love you to be ready though.

1215
00:50:40,930 --> 00:50:43,523
Samantha, she gets nicked, she goes to

1216
00:50:43,523 --> 00:50:46,116
prison, she comes out, she uses drugs,

1217
00:50:46,116 --> 00:50:49,079
she gets nick, goes to prison. So it's

1218
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:51,672
not like people think that there's sort

1219
00:50:51,672 --> 00:50:53,524
of a compassionate and altruistic

1220
00:50:53,524 --> 00:50:56,117
perspective is some sort of wet woolly

1221
00:50:56,117 --> 00:50:58,339
liberalism. It's not. It's pragmatism. It

1222
00:50:58,339 --> 00:50:59,080
doesn't work.

1223
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,058
And now for the climactic moment that

1224
00:51:09,058 --> 00:51:11,131
we're all awaiting, where I confront

1225
00:51:11,131 --> 00:51:13,204
current Prime Minister David Cameron and

1226
00:51:13,204 --> 00:51:15,968
ask him why he says the current system

1227
00:51:15,968 --> 00:51:18,386
is working. Obviously he didn't agree to

1228
00:51:18,386 --> 00:51:20,805
that meeting, so instead I meet the

1229
00:51:20,805 --> 00:51:22,706
deputy. Prime Minister Nick Clegg, he's

1230
00:51:22,706 --> 00:51:24,171
criticised the government drug policy,

1231
00:51:24,171 --> 00:51:27,103
which is a start, but what has he done to

1232
00:51:27,103 --> 00:51:29,155
really move it on? Describing it in

1233
00:51:29,155 --> 00:51:30,914
military terms, war on drugs, chucking

1234
00:51:30,914 --> 00:51:32,966
lots of people into prison only seats

1235
00:51:32,966 --> 00:51:35,604
only to see them come out hooked on even

1236
00:51:35,604 --> 00:51:37,363
harder drugs clearly doesn't make sense.

1237
00:51:37,363 --> 00:51:39,415
You should be treating people who are

1238
00:51:39,415 --> 00:51:41,467
addicted as people who need help and

1239
00:51:41,467 --> 00:51:43,935
treatment. As it happens in this

1240
00:51:43,935 --> 00:51:46,028
particular government, I can't get the my

1241
00:51:46,028 --> 00:51:47,523
particular coalition partners now to

1242
00:51:47,523 --> 00:51:49,316
agree to further reform. But you're

1243
00:51:49,316 --> 00:51:51,708
right, it it has to change because you

1244
00:51:51,708 --> 00:51:53,203
quite rightly saying warehousing people

1245
00:51:53,203 --> 00:51:54,997
behind bars and simply just injecting

1246
00:51:54,997 --> 00:51:56,791
them into normal life and somehow

1247
00:51:56,791 --> 00:51:58,883
expecting them to find their feet again

1248
00:51:58,883 --> 00:52:01,275
is it's sort of patently absurd. We have

1249
00:52:01,275 --> 00:52:03,669
an obligation, we have a. Duty to bring

1250
00:52:03,669 --> 00:52:05,580
about change and sometimes also to lead.

1251
00:52:05,580 --> 00:52:07,491
The public have moved much further on

1252
00:52:07,491 --> 00:52:09,401
this than the political class have. I'll

1253
00:52:09,401 --> 00:52:11,312
give you very good example, The Sun

1254
00:52:11,312 --> 00:52:13,223
newspaper 5-10 years ago, but The Sun

1255
00:52:13,223 --> 00:52:15,134
newspaper would never write the kind of

1256
00:52:15,134 --> 00:52:17,045
things they write now. It's fantastic. I

1257
00:52:17,045 --> 00:52:18,955
think the best selling newspaper in the

1258
00:52:18,955 --> 00:52:21,139
in the United Kingdom is actually one of

1259
00:52:21,139 --> 00:52:23,050
the leading advocates of of drugs reform.

1260
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:24,807
That's, you know, that's a big, big

1261
00:52:24,807 --> 00:52:26,689
change. Just the pace of it. That's what

1262
00:52:26,689 --> 00:52:28,336
makes me sort of sort of somewhat

1263
00:52:28,336 --> 00:52:29,513
despondent about the political system.

1264
00:52:29,513 --> 00:52:31,160
And I don't suppose it's probably anyone

1265
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,807
in this country is more despondent about

1266
00:52:32,807 --> 00:52:34,454
the political system than you. But like

1267
00:52:34,454 --> 00:52:36,572
what I personally feel is it all takes so

1268
00:52:36,572 --> 00:52:38,454
long. I think we'll look back over 50

1269
00:52:38,454 --> 00:52:40,101
years time and say what outcome we're

1270
00:52:40,101 --> 00:52:42,219
like prepared to sit out a 50 year lump

1271
00:52:42,219 --> 00:52:44,809
of bird on it. When we could just go like

1272
00:52:44,809 --> 00:52:46,822
this, let's make moves now you'd like it

1273
00:52:46,822 --> 00:52:48,582
to go quickly. Course, of course, of

1274
00:52:48,582 --> 00:52:50,595
course I'd like to a much quicker. This

1275
00:52:50,595 --> 00:52:52,355
is quick broke. Look, it's slow, it's

1276
00:52:52,355 --> 00:52:54,116
slow. It's going to happen. I'm just

1277
00:52:54,116 --> 00:52:56,380
saying, do you want to do it while you've

1278
00:52:56,380 --> 00:52:58,895
got jobs or do you want us to take care

1279
00:52:58,895 --> 00:53:01,159
of it? I'm not. I'm not as pessimistic as

1280
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:02,668
you are about because I'm not

1281
00:53:02,668 --> 00:53:04,986
pessimistic. And I hate people say

1282
00:53:04,986 --> 00:53:06,282
impatient, impatient. I mean practical.

1283
00:53:06,282 --> 00:53:08,874
It's just like like sort of once I I know

1284
00:53:08,874 --> 00:53:11,467
a thing, now I know a thing. So once I

1285
00:53:11,467 --> 00:53:13,540
know it, I don't like all this meandering

1286
00:53:13,540 --> 00:53:15,355
and nonsense, right While we cow towing

1287
00:53:15,355 --> 00:53:17,429
to and pretending we don't know. What can

1288
00:53:17,429 --> 00:53:19,502
I tell you why you might know something.

1289
00:53:19,502 --> 00:53:21,576
It might just take other people a little

1290
00:53:21,576 --> 00:53:24,356
bit longer to know things. And in a. In a

1291
00:53:24,356 --> 00:53:25,724
democracy, you need to persuade other

1292
00:53:25,724 --> 00:53:27,093
people. Downpour of democracy. Move on.

1293
00:53:27,093 --> 00:53:29,145
Me. I can guarantee you I can have people

1294
00:53:29,145 --> 00:53:30,513
sitting in the seat from completely

1295
00:53:30,513 --> 00:53:32,110
different places. It's ohh. It's far too

1296
00:53:32,110 --> 00:53:33,706
little bit too risky. Yeah, but they're

1297
00:53:33,706 --> 00:53:35,074
not drug addicts. They've not been

1298
00:53:35,074 --> 00:53:36,442
through it. They're talking from a

1299
00:53:36,442 --> 00:53:37,811
position still members of society. That's

1300
00:53:37,811 --> 00:53:39,407
the point, you know? That's the point.

1301
00:53:39,407 --> 00:53:41,231
You know that you can't, you can't. You

1302
00:53:41,231 --> 00:53:43,056
and I might disagree with what they might

1303
00:53:43,056 --> 00:53:44,652
say, but you can't somehow sort of

1304
00:53:44,652 --> 00:53:46,633
dismiss. Dismissed their responses, but I

1305
00:53:46,633 --> 00:53:48,888
think you and I both know that the reason

1306
00:53:48,888 --> 00:53:50,642
that this legislation takes so long to

1307
00:53:50,642 --> 00:53:52,145
move is because there's certain people

1308
00:53:52,145 --> 00:53:53,899
benefit from things being how they are

1309
00:53:53,899 --> 00:53:55,904
that a society structures as it is is

1310
00:53:55,904 --> 00:53:57,909
beneficial to the people that at the top

1311
00:53:57,909 --> 00:54:00,164
of it and the people that say I totally

1312
00:54:00,164 --> 00:54:01,918
agree with you there is a ridiculous

1313
00:54:01,918 --> 00:54:04,564
outdated deeply sort of. Folds unheroic

1314
00:54:04,564 --> 00:54:06,525
cowardice in the British political class,

1315
00:54:06,525 --> 00:54:08,813
yes, where people will talk bravely about

1316
00:54:08,813 --> 00:54:10,774
reforming drugs when they're not in

1317
00:54:10,774 --> 00:54:13,389
office. And at the moment they get in

1318
00:54:13,389 --> 00:54:15,351
offices like this, they completely they

1319
00:54:15,351 --> 00:54:17,312
completely it's coming. Change is coming.

1320
00:54:17,312 --> 00:54:20,254
It's it is happening in in what you would

1321
00:54:20,254 --> 00:54:22,542
call baby steps and it will continue.

1322
00:54:22,542 --> 00:54:24,830
There's just no doubt in my mind.

1323
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,482
Whatsoever that the idiotic sort of

1324
00:54:26,482 --> 00:54:28,564
so-called war on drugs that we have today

1325
00:54:28,564 --> 00:54:30,646
will simply not persist it, it will not.

1326
00:54:30,646 --> 00:54:32,468
That's just not enough, Nick. It's just

1327
00:54:32,468 --> 00:54:34,810
not enough. I mean, if we ran some tests

1328
00:54:34,810 --> 00:54:36,632
in the toilets over there in Westminster,

1329
00:54:36,632 --> 00:54:38,714
I think we'd find out if there's some

1330
00:54:38,714 --> 00:54:40,275
interesting powders, you know, So like,

1331
00:54:40,275 --> 00:54:42,357
you know, if these people are prepared to

1332
00:54:42,357 --> 00:54:43,919
use drugs themselves, if they prepare,

1333
00:54:43,919 --> 00:54:45,933
you know, they're not. Subject to the

1334
00:54:45,933 --> 00:54:47,540
conditions that are rules, to the

1335
00:54:47,540 --> 00:54:49,414
penalties that we're subject to. And so

1336
00:54:49,414 --> 00:54:51,556
for us, it is an emergency. Yeah, it's

1337
00:54:51,556 --> 00:54:53,698
not an emergency. Some people have got 50

1338
00:54:53,698 --> 00:54:55,573
years. Some people are struggling to get

1339
00:54:55,573 --> 00:54:57,179
through through the next few seconds,

1340
00:54:57,179 --> 00:54:59,321
mate. And that's who we've got to speak

1341
00:54:59,321 --> 00:55:01,464
on behalf of. Fair enough. Fair enough. I

1342
00:55:01,464 --> 00:55:03,873
like you. I know. So Nick agrees the war

1343
00:55:03,873 --> 00:55:06,385
on drugs is the wrong policy. They can't

1344
00:55:06,385 --> 00:55:09,061
do anything about it. Then just four

1345
00:55:09,061 --> 00:55:11,355
weeks later comes this possible game

1346
00:55:11,355 --> 00:55:13,648
changer. Good evening. The Home Office

1347
00:55:13,648 --> 00:55:16,325
didn't want its report published, but the

1348
00:55:16,325 --> 00:55:18,618
study does confirm that Portugal's decade

1349
00:55:18,618 --> 00:55:20,912
long programme of treating rather than

1350
00:55:20,912 --> 00:55:23,588
jailing drug users is working. In this

1351
00:55:23,588 --> 00:55:25,971
case, David Cameron's response was. And

1352
00:55:25,971 --> 00:55:28,015
yet, I don't believe in decriminalizing

1353
00:55:28,015 --> 00:55:30,399
drugs that are illegal today. I'm a

1354
00:55:30,399 --> 00:55:32,784
parent with three children. I don't want

1355
00:55:32,784 --> 00:55:35,509
to send out a message that somehow taking

1356
00:55:35,509 --> 00:55:38,235
these drugs is OK or safe. The same

1357
00:55:38,235 --> 00:55:40,619
report reveals that 71% of the British

1358
00:55:40,619 --> 00:55:43,345
population know that the war on drugs can

1359
00:55:43,345 --> 00:55:46,070
never be won. So what do we do?

1360
00:55:46,670 --> 00:55:48,675
The disease of addiction is no respecter

1361
00:55:48,675 --> 00:55:50,967
of class or race or anything. It affects

1362
00:55:50,967 --> 00:55:53,832
all of us. But like at this **** end of

1363
00:55:53,832 --> 00:55:56,124
it is poor people going to prison, people

1364
00:55:56,124 --> 00:55:58,129
with mental health issues and just the

1365
00:55:58,129 --> 00:56:00,421
people messed up, messed up having to get

1366
00:56:00,421 --> 00:56:02,712
in the sex industry, having to get into

1367
00:56:02,712 --> 00:56:04,718
crime to support their habits just like

1368
00:56:04,718 --> 00:56:07,459
this. Is this sort out?The Sabbath is

1369
00:56:07,459 --> 00:56:09,797
for the man, the man is not for the

1370
00:56:09,797 --> 00:56:11,615
Sabbath. So you know, like these systems

1371
00:56:11,615 --> 00:56:13,692
are for us. If these no systems don't

1372
00:56:13,692 --> 00:56:15,770
serve us, we get rid of the system.

1373
00:56:36,090 --> 00:56:56,090


1374
00:56:56,250 --> 00:56:58,300